Curse

Rocky Raccoon · Feb 25, 2010, 03:54 PM // 15:54

"Grind" is just a relative term as each person has their own definition of what they consider to be "grind". Personally I don't mind having to kill so many of such and such to achieve a goal, as long as there are balancing side quests to break "the grind" up. Having played RPG's from when they first came out I might have been acclimated to such game-play.

Shayne Hawke · Feb 25, 2010, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I feel like the more grind there is in a game, that's a sign either that the real end game content (of which GW only has two, DoA and Slavers', since every other "high end" area can be accessed before completion of the campaign/storyline) isn't sufficient for holding players' attention for decent periods of time, or that the rewards of some types of grind are lackluster at low levels of progression and stupidly powerful at high (or even still at low) levels by design - pretty much any PvE-only and some PvE-split skills that have become infamous for one reason or another over the past few years.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Congrats and I sincerely mean that but you could have made this much easier on yourself running low end chests in Shing Jea. Lockpick retention is fairly high even at low ranks and at 250 a pop it adds up very fast depending on what route you run. Even if you restrict your activity to the bi-annual double lucky/unlucky weekend you could put a massive dent in this title over time.

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.
After those two days - I needed a 14 day break from GW.

That to me is too much grind and I will rather stop playing than force myself to do it.

On the other hand, I will GLADLY open any chest I see while just playing PvE. As anyone who partied with me and heard me shout "OMG!! A CHEST!!! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!" followed by me rushing for it, aggroing half the map, will confirm!

Arduin · Feb 25, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

I love the gameplay titles. Guardian/Protector/Vanquisher are all fun to me because you are rewarded for playing the game's storyline. There's a lot of 'work' involved, but i like it because every mission or vanquish is different enough to not make it too much of a drag. Same goes for Cartographer, every step to increase your progress in the title is unique.

I'm not that fond of the Allegiance titles, like SS/LB, Kurz/Luxon and the EotN ones. Some of them can be maxed by playing the game and doing some more farming or runs (EotN ones), some of them need an ungodly amount of dedication to max (Kurz/Luxon). I am happy Kurz/Lux is indeed accountwide, so I can progress in the title without limiting myself to one character.

The last batch of titles are in my opinion only fun for the first or first few tiers. Sweet/Party/Drunkard is all about farming the money and clicking 10,000 on the items you've bought. It's no fun at all. There's no skill involved. Progression in Lucky/Unlucky is so slow and indirect the title could as well be non-existant, and running 10k Chests or Wisdom demands such time-investment into this game... I just can't justify the time needed maxing those titles.

All in all it saddens me Anet used titles to artificially inflate playing time for Guild Wars. Being rewarded by a title for completing all missions the game had to offer in HM is one thing, but being rewarded for running Witman's Folly for 2500 times to max TH is downright sadism.

Anet opted for the easy way out. Instead of adding interesting content by for example providing us with more areas to discover, they gave us some treadmills in the form of adding +1 over and over to a title until the bar is at 100%. And we are happily running in those treadmills, talking down on the people that are trying to expose the facades and show the public what they are really accomplishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.
After those two days - I needed a 14 day break from GW.

That to me is too much grind and I will rather stop playing than force myself to do it.

On the other hand, I will GLADLY open any chest I see while just playing PvE. As anyone, who partied with me as they heard me shout "OMG!! A CHEST!!! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!" and see me rush for it, aggroing half the map, can confirm!

I wholeheartedly agree. Including the part about aggroing half the map as soon as a chest is spotted

Terek Zelta · Feb 25, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

@Reformed: Maybe saying that was out of line, but I wasn't directing it at you personally, I was illustrating a point, but sometimes I come off needlessly confrontational, and I'm sorry for that.

My point is that a lot of players aren't going to care. I wouldn't care. In fact, I'd see it as a nice boost, because, and I'm evidently not the only one who feels this way, I want to play other characters too, but I don't have the motivation to spend all that time title grinding. I don't have the time to spend all that time grinding. So it'd still be easier for everyone, especially if titles became account-wide, then everyone really wins.

Reformed · Feb 25, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I don't have any problem with all Allegiance titles and Party/Sweet/Drunk going to account wide. I don't understand why that didn't happen to begin with and I'd /sign for the change. My understanding was that this thread was calling for another scaling decrease to make things more within reach to the very casual gamer.

Let's try this instead...the game is coming up on it's 5th birthday. Suppose they do drop the ranks to a more suitable level, everyone who wants them maxes the titles out and is happy with the changes. Then what? It's obvious they don't have the resources to put in brand new real content and while titles are a very poor substitute with those out of the way what else is left?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.
Did the math and it seems I need to now open like 5k chests with a value of 600 in NM to get there. I ran chests for like 2 days for less than an hour each day.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you but look at it like this. Before they redid those titles you only gained 25 unlucky points per break. If you started at 0 it would cost you somewhere in the ballpark of 25 million needing 20,000 breaks start to finish and somehow people actually had Cursed by Fate before the update. If you were to do it today starting at 0 and picking a reasonable spot say...65%, it would run you somewhere around 3-4 million needing ~3100 breaks. That was an extremely generous re-evaluation of a title that was beyond ridiculous to work on.

Terek Zelta · Feb 25, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I'd play the game a lot more, personally, because it'd be easier for me to play multiple characters. I want to play a dervish, an elementalist and a necromancer, and I would if each one didn't take upwards of 6-8 months to complete. I don't have that kind of time.

I don't care so much for the GWAMM or any of those. It's the EotN titles that are the worst offenders for me, especially when we take into account that a lot of those PVE skills are integral to some builds, like Asuran Scan, Brawling Headbutt, Dwarven Stability (especially with the new update to Dwarven Battle Stance), YMLaD, and others. People shouldn't be penalized just because they aren't willing to spend an entire month or two maxing their Norn rank, especially given that Anet nerfed some of the older grinds, like kegging.

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

I vote they revert Alliance titles back the way they used to be without the reintroduction of HFFF. Make it so that faction can only be obtained by playing JQ; FA and AB. Guess what; the revenue obtained from zkeys will max you all consumable titles; with enough keys to spare to add the zaishen title to your HoM. Thats what I did.

OP is just lazy; and wants to perma/sc all. / NOT SIGNED!

Next thing you'll want them to bring back rr for pvp titles. pffffff.

Arduin · Feb 25, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Yes, make increasing the rank of Lux/Kurz solely based on PvP-play so your PvE-only skills are more effective. Makes sense.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Let's try this instead...the game is coming up on it's 5th birthday. Suppose they do drop the ranks to a more suitable level, everyone who wants them maxes the titles out and is happy with the changes. Then what? It's obvious they don't have the resources to put in brand new real content and while titles are a very poor substitute with those out of the way what else is left?

Even if they do quit, wouldn't it be better to have people quit this game with the knowledge that they did it all, rather than how they quit now - pissed at the game because there is no way in hell that they can max their guys?

Personally, I still enjoy making new guys, checking out how the class evolved from the last time I played it, trying out new strategies and that certainly wouldn't change if they made these goals easier to achieve. Heck, I would argue that it would make it even more enjoyable because instead of having to do stuff 15 times on my assassin I could do it 2 times on my mesmer, then 3 times on my ranger, a few times on my .... The game can still offer a great number of ways to play it - and it's a shame we are forced to stick with one way only.

Terek Zelta · Feb 25, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

I vote they revert Alliance titles back the way they used to be without the reintroduction of HFFF. Make it so that faction can only be obtained by playing JQ; FA and AB. Guess what; the revenue obtained from zkeys will max you all consumable titles; with enough keys to spare to add the zaishen title to your HoM. Thats what I did.

OP is just lazy; and wants to perma/sc all. / NOT SIGNED!

Next thing you'll want them to bring back rr for pvp titles. pffffff.

This is a very common stance to take, and it's totally false. Let me give you another point of view.

I'm a reverend by profession. My legal title is "Reverend Father." The nature of my work, and what it took to even get here, is stressful beyond anything you could possibly imagine. Stressful to the point that it's affected my physical health, and I'm ill.

I play RPGs to relax. I got into Guild Wars because it was marketed as a more progressive RPG that reduced the grind. Cool, I said, I get to enjoy an RPG that I don't have to stress over. But when I got the game, I realized, to my disappointment, that the grind was actually even worse than a game like Ragnarok Online or WoW. But it's okay, because titles are optional, right?

Not really, no. Not when everyone around you is running 6 seconds of Save Yourselves and maxed Asuran Scan.

I'm anything but lazy. In fact, I'm overworked. That's why I don't like coming home to have to work again. I get 1-2 hours of playtime a day, and I have to spend that time on my dervish getting Asura runs? No thanks. I'll just play my scythe warrior and fantasize about playing a dervish.

What I've realized is that a lot of Guild Wars players are older, and their situations are similar, if less extreme than mine, and that doesn't make their arguments any less valid.

But this is maybe addressing a larger problem with MMORPGs as a whole.

Edit: Had to finish an idea. Hehe.

chessyang · Feb 25, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I would prefer to see the return to an account-wide way to play the game, rather than the character-based one we have now

ya i agree to. i gave up "grinding" the speedbooks and then doing sunspear farming points for my other toons.

I'm happy the factions are account wide. i'll solo farm (A/E) some greens then back to my wamo to clear out some areas.

also upier i posted on twitter an idea about the login screen. they did respond and said for the devs to look at the idea was to post it on the wiki to keep it legit. if you have more ideas post them on the wiki. and check my sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I hate title grinding. Guild Wars took everything that used to be fun about grinding in MMORPGs and somehow made it awful, stressful, and just no fun.

i agree also! just wanted to say that

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Do not presume you know the boundarys of my imagination. I to am an adult going on 40; married; and with a fulltime career as an MD. I know the nature of MMORPG's can have a severe impact on health; social activity and career. As such I also know that we cant have it all in life. So; have fun & enjoy; but lets keep it fair to the people who did spend oodles of time maxing titles the way they were intended to. Titles were made to distinuish some from others.

Another Felldspar · Feb 25, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

It's grind if it's not fun or interesting or what you want to do. If you are doing something because of a reward, and not simply enjoying the reward of playing, it's grind.

In Prophecies and in Factions my play pal and I used to kill every red dot that appeared on our radar -- we pushed buttons, things blew up, it was fun. We might be heading to a specific location, but taking a detour because there were enemies on the screen was the norm. Then we started playing NF and there were these little guys standing next to the rez shrines and they had special little bounties. The change in play style was amazing. Very quickly we started avoiding any red dot that didn't have an associated bounty showing on our screen at the time. Now it wasn't just fun, we were getting paid to eliminate red dots and by God we weren't going to eliminate any of them for free. The reward became the bounty where before the reward had been the play.

At this point I'd rather play in Factions than anywhere else in the game. The red dots are close together and in fairly good-sized groups and I can just do it for fun and not worry about getting paid. I like that better. Missions, vanquishes, hanging out with allies, it's good fun. I like the Zaishen missions and bounties too, there isn't any title involved and even though you do get paid there are options for how you want to spend your coin.

At the same time I enjoy the titles. I find myself looking mournfully at my title-hound Monk who is sitting unused because playing the other characters is more fun to me at the moment. My play pal has now passed me by in the titles department because I'm busy playing my Mesmer or my Paragon or my Rit and she's been faithful to her Ranger. Instead of a smelly guildhall I have many books and several KoaBD titles on other characters.

So... I like the titles, I want the titles, and at some point I will probably go back and grind out GWAMM on the monk. But it will be grind. Right now I'm too busy playing to worry about grinding.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

As such I also know that we cant have it all in life. So; have fun & enjoy; but lets keep it fair to the people who did spend oodles of time maxing titles the way they were intended to. Titles were made to distinuish some from others.

Nobody is arguing that titles aren't supposed to distinguish players among themselves. The problem is where that boundary is.
When you have a game where playing the game will bring you in 350k faction, and to max it you need 5 million - that line is probably set a bit too high.
Same with how completing the game will probably give you the chance to open a few hundred chests, yet the line is at 10k. Probably a bit out of touch with the game also.
On the other hand, take Sunspear for instance. You play the game, VQ the maps and you get to max the title. You still have a line that separates players but that line is very much in touch with the game.

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Terek Zelta · Feb 25, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Nobody is arguing that titles aren't supposed to distinguish players among themselves. The problem is where that boundary is.
When you have a game where playing the game will bring you in 350k faction, and to max it you need 5 million - that line is probably set a bit too high.
Same with how completing the game will probably give you the chance to open a few hundred chests, yet the line is at 10k. Probably a bit out of touch with the game also.
On the other hand, take Sunspear for instance. You play the game, VQ the maps and you get to max the title. You still have a line that separates players but that line is very much in touch with the game.

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Bingo!

The Sunspear title is a perfect example of a nicely balanced title. You still work for it, but it's not unreasonable. It's, dare I say, fun.

@Isildor: Don't interpret what I said as an attack. If you read my post, you'd realize it isn't MMORPGs that affect my health, but my job.

Gill Halendt · Feb 25, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I now need to max Unlucky.

No, you don't.

You WANT to max it. It's YOUR choice.

That's it: some titles can be maxed only after massive grinding. Having them maxed just shows your dedication to the game -> how much TIME you could spend on it.

Yes. Skill > Time was a lie. Simply because GW feels so simplistic when compared to other games that it requires almost no skill whatsoever, be it PvE or PvP. The PvX-mentality shows that pretty much anyone can do anything by just copy-pasting a template code.

So, there can be no "Skill > Time" when no skill is needed to accomplish anything.

isildorbiafra · Feb 25, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As for the people who got there already - sometimes you pay more to be the first. I paid much more for my mesmer's FoW than I did for my assassin's.

Your thinking is flawed. It only feels that way. lets say ectos were 15k when you bought your mesmer FOW and 5k when you bought your assassin. Disregarding broken farm builds like SF and UWSC which must be removed asap; back then when you bought your mesmer FOW there was no such thing as loot scaling. Hence peolpe made tons of cash farming all over the place and all item prices were relatively much higher; which ment you made much more money trading back than than you do nowadays. So you see its all relative. The net effort however remains the same!

Kaleban · Feb 25, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

The funny bit is that this thread even exists given ANet's promise that GW would reward skill and not grind.

Or that as they expanded PvE content, they added in more and more grind.

If ANet is smart, they will make all titles account based, which means once you get a GWAMM, all your characters can display it. Sure, it may not be "fair" for all the oldies who grinded out GWAMM on multiple characters, but seeing as how that's insane in the first place I wouldn't set the bar by them.

The point is, for ANet to survive they MUST increase interest in their games. To have a PvE side that is primarily repetitive grind, especially given that it was advertised as the exact opposite is not conducive to maintaining a playerbase that trusts you, nor does it attract new business.

Account wide titles (all titles) would be a wise step towards making GW PvE fun again.

upier · Feb 25, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No, you don't.

You WANT to max it. It's YOUR choice.

That's it: some titles can be maxed only after massive grinding. Having them maxed just shows your dedication to the game -> how much TIME you could spend on it.

Yes. Skill > Time was a lie. Simply because GW feels so simplistic when compared to other games that it requires almost no skill whatsoever, be it PvE or PvP. The PvX-mentality shows that pretty much anyone can do anything by just copy-pasting a template code.

So, there can be no "Skill > Time" when no skill is needed to accomplish anything.

People don't NEED to play GW.
They WANT to play GW.
Not only that, they can choose to not bring SF into their own instance.
Do you see where I am going with this?

Titles are content.
And the question that is raised here is if this content is in touch with the rest of the game. Based on the numbers we are seeing, I am arguing that it isn't. And based on other effects this content has on the rest of the game - I am also arguing that it would be beneficial to at least take a long hard look at it and decide if this is what the game is supposed to evolve into.
If for no other reason - to set the direction for GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Your thinking is flawed. It only feels that way. lets say ectos were 15k when you bought your mesmer FOW and 5k when you bought your assassin. Disregarding broken farm builds like SF and UWSC which must be removed asap; back then when you bought your mesmer FOW there was no such thing as loot scaling. Hence peolpe made tons of cash farming all over the place and all item prices were relatively much higher; which ment you made much more money trading back than than you do nowadays. So you see its all relative. The net effort however remains the same!

As I said, the value of the set isn't only it's monetary value.
Nowadays pretty much every assassin is running around in FoW. So, me running around in it has a smaller value than me running around in my mesmer's FoW had in a time when less people had it.
I paid more to be a unique snowflake.
The same way that, for instance, people paid more to buy a PS3 on launch as they do now. Or in GW, how they paid 100k+ for a Celestial Tiger on Friday, but we only paid around 40k on Sunday.
Or in a relevant example - the way people paid to show off their max chest title when very few people had it.